This thread is now two years on and frankly I cannot be bothered to go through all the thousands of posts, although I have no doubt that they have been thought provoking.
That said, I for one don't have issue with abortion, purely because I see it for what it is from the medical sense. Unfortunately, the word abortion has been bandied around far too much as meaning only ONE thing...which is... suppoosedly that women who have abortions are selfish..etc etc...
No.. I am in a category known as a serial abortionist. Not ONE of the abortions I have had, had anything to do with a desire to slut around unabated and in fact each one of them was out of my control. The only thing I HAD a say in, was to agree to D&C and sometimes DC&E... which, when ON ones medical records, is listed as "surgical abortion".
I just wish people would stop running with a BUZZ word and applying the BUZZ meaning to the word abortion.
The word ABORTION actually means.. premature expulsion....whether natural OR unnatural...
FACT: THE VAST MAJORITY of conceptions spontaneously abort before a positive pregnancy read can even be done. Then there are miscarriages (STILL an abortion) and if the miscarriage IS a late one (15-16 weeks) then it is KEY for a woman to have a D&C or DC&E to remove the remaining debris. Then we have things like molar pregnancies, blighted ovum...etc etc etc... ALL needing surgical abortion technique OF what was a WANTED pregnancy.
I am PRO CHOICE for the above reason. Speculating WHY women do have abortions, usually has ZERO to do with the facts BEHIND it. I am not going to make judgement on ANYONE and shame on those who DO, when they do NOT know all the facts.
Frankly, it's not your damned business anyway.
Indeed I've had 3, each was following double contraception use, sometimes REALLY bad luck just happens, shit happens, were it not for my abortions, I would have committed suicide, there's no way I would have endured and unwanted growth to carry on in my body without my consent!
I know of women who have also terminated pregnancies for reasons you did. I don't know if I ever could as such a situation never cropped up, but I would defend your right to the HILT for you to do with your body what you choose to.
Unfortunately far too many self-professed "pro-lifers" don't see, nor want to see that the reasons some women terminate pregnancies, that such a decision is not made lightly.
For example one quite rabid "pro-lifer" I was interacting with just recently, made the arduous claim that the MAJORITY of voluntary induced terminations, were done on girls who were more concerned with PROMNIGHT or "fooling around/promiscuity". It does not matter to her that the FACTS actually speak the contrary.. she just continued crapping on like a pork chop, going on to say that these girls were sociopaths and killers and other abuses toward them of that ilk.
Certainly, people have a right to an opinion on such matters, but they would make themselves look less stupid, IF their opinion was actually a learned one.
I'm pro abortion, but I really do wonder where you draw the line between personal or not. If I was pro-life, it would not be just for me, it would be for all society, one who's against the death penalty or animal cruelty doesn't just say "it's personal". I think saying "it's personal" is the weakest of arguments in the pro-choice movement. It's not "personal", it's societal, and ALL females MJST have the ability to control their own bodies. I will not stop on my campaign until all people stop calling things "personal". Personal is food choice, THIS is my life...
Even Christopher Hitchens was against abortion. It should be fairly easy to understand that is is great moral evil being perpetrated by our society. Conception is the only logical place to define life. It is at that point that the zygote has its own DNA distinct from that of either of the parents, and it begins development at an astonishing rate, this development will only stop if some violence is perpetrated against it. The viability of the embryo or foetus is irrelevant. It is already on the fast track to becoming a sentient human being. If the parent cannot keep the child then adoption is preferable to killing the embryo. A woman's choice is before she become pregnant.
So, gestational trophoblastic disease is "life" to you?
Animals are more sentient than fetuses right now, yet do you eat them?
The risk of death from pregnancy and childbirth is greater than the risk of death from an elective abortion. Does denying a woman a choice to take the lesser risk imply you value a fetus over the sentient being mom?
There are far more spontaneous abortions/miscarriages than elective abortions. Is this "god" declaring itself a pro-abortionist?
And, if you haven't already done so, please read "When Abortion Was a Crime" and the Roe v Wade decision.
When "life" starts is completely irrelevant. What the law defines is a person, and a foetus will never be a person because its life is not independent from the mother's wormb. Hitchins was a war monger, I don't see how any of his opinions about life have any appeal.
Considering Christopher Hitchens had no ovaries, how is this at all relevant?
Also, how can the viability of the foetus/embryo/blastosyst NOT be relevant, or do you expect women with molar pregnancies to walk around for 40 odd weeks with a growing humour inside them, that will NOT ever become a sentient human being? What about women with ectopic pregnancy? In both these cases conception happened and through no fault of the woman, they will NEVER EVER be neonates.
I must say that I totally sympathize, and am completely in agreement, with the sentiment of not wanting the government to tell a woman (or man, for that matter) "what to do with their own body". I definitely want the government's fingers off of both men's and women's bodies as much as is reasonably possible.
The rub, of course, is when the actions of one person's body affect another person's body. Theology aside, secular America, for example, has a long tradition of recognizing that the rights of my fist end where your nose begins. Pregnancy is a very special experience wherein one person's body actually grows, develops, and is eventually birthed through, another person's body. Two bodies are hardly ever so interdependently connected as in pregnancy. So it is unfitting to apply generic phraseology to a situation which encompasses such a unique set of specific conditions. Namely, any rhetoric about "her own body" really doesn't do justice to the complexity of the situation. Again, even with all theology aside, it is by no means obvious to many a parent who has watched a sonogram of their child in the womb that the child developing inside its mother should be regarded as a non-human-being. So resorting to the "her own body" rhetoric which is so common does not strike me as being a good, honest, or fair approach.
If someone wants to make the argument that a "fetus" is not a human being and does not warrant the protections that most of us assume are appropriate for a human being, they can set forth such an argument. But if the form of argumentation simply glosses over, or minimizes, the entirely non-trivial issue of the second body involved then I believe such an approach is doomed to appear disingenuous to those who are deeply concerned about (what they at least honestly perceive as) the "other" body in the story.
This is why I really cannot stand watching the "pro choice" side shoot themselves in the foot with "keep your laws off my body" language. When the other side is arguing that this is a murder, that's wholly inadequate as a response; if it's a murder the government has every business putting its laws on your body, anyone other than an anarchist will agree that that is what government is for. So you must make the case that it's not a murder--or at the very least cast doubt on their arguments--which "Keep your laws off my body" fails to do.
It's not a person, and it's not a second body. It is my body, up until it it is ready to get out of my body, after 9 months. Until it is out of my body, it IS MY body.