In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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To sum it up - Zach believes any form of BC that prevents the egg from being fertilized and thus, prevents a non-existent person from coming into existence is acceptable. All forms that may prevent implantation are equal to murder because an egg magically becomes a person at the instant of fertilization (but not when the sperm is only 3/4 of the way in - I asked) and should then be granted full human rights including protection from murder.

He cannot understand why no one here seems to follow this logic.

@ Jewelz - Okay, so now I am wondering if Zach approves of the rhythm method as an acceptable form of birth control.

I am wondering if Zach approves of the rhythm method as an acceptable form of birth control.

According to Zach's logic, the following methods of birth control are acceptable: abstinence, the rhythm method, tubal/vasectomy, condoms, and diaphragms.

Women who use any other forms of birth control are murdering babies.

I'm coming in late on this.. and admittingly haven't read all the posts. Has he covered the Morning After pill.? It doesn't prevent fertilization, just implantation of the fertilized cells. 

Now my next question is, does Zach consider it murder if a woman/girl get's pregnant then her body naturally aborts the baby. Just so we're clear, I'm not talking still-births

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Zach, but I'm fairly sure he would think a natural abortion would be the same as an infant dying of natural causes.

However, he would assert that any birth control method that may allow fertilization but prevent implantation would be equivalent to murder. We already covered the morning after pill, but this thread is nearly 50 pages long now so some might have missed that.

However, he would assert that any birth control method that may allow fertilization but prevent implantation would be equivalent to murder. We already covered the morning after pill, but this thread is nearly 50 pages long now so some might have missed that.

@ Jewelz - Thank you for pointing that out. I did miss that.

So now it is my understanding that Zach believes the split second the sperm kisses the egg, a termination should not occur, in most circumstances, if not all.

I seem to recall Zach saying he was undecided on some of these circumstances. This is where it gets murky as far I am concerned; why Zach may feel certain circumstances are okay to abort and certain circumstances, not.

It depends upon your perspective as to when life begins. Your change of heart already points to the fact that there is some grey area as to the beginning of life. For me life begins at birth. However, I realize that's not a fact, Its just my perspective. Its not better or worse than the perspective that life begins at conception. There is no definitive answer or way to prove the beginning of life. As such, everyone needs to make their own decision on abortion and no it doesn't make you a terrible person to abort if there was an accident. People have sex. Hopefully they use some type of contraception. Accidents happen. Rapes happen. Incest happens. In any of these cases the decision of whether or not to abort comes down to the person most affected, the mother. 

Religious people hate grey matter, so they need a definitive, all or nothing law. No aboritons. Not in any case. Not even when a 12 year old is raped. Jesus H Christ. Be pro life if you choose, but be pro life for yourself and not for others. 

Hi all--just joining the conversation, read the first few pages of comments and skipped to the end, I can't possibly read 49 pages of comments right now, so I apologize if this was already said.  I am pro-choice, but am against late term abortions unless it is for a medical reason.  I have not seen the women's rights side of this debate mentioned here.  I think that is a key component in whether a person is pro-choice or pro-life.  I know it is for me. 

You have not seen the women's rights side of it????????????????

Women's rights are the main issue that has been discussed here. Above and beyond any other possible argument, it is my right to to make the final decision as to whether or not a foetus will come to term in my body. Women's rights are the ONLY argument... IMO My body, my decision. Any day a foetus of any age spends unwanted time in my womb is a day too many.

I agree with you, and it looks like I should have pages 5-48 of comments before posting.  Sorry...

Lot's of interesting responses here, pretty well thought out.  I'm definitely pro-choice, it's none of my business so I have to be pro-choice.  There are some guilty edges to this statement though.  On one hand abortion helps control crime because of the lack of unwanted babies growing up psychologically "deformed" or the raised possibility of that.  Nothing is for certain obviously but statistically at least this appears to be accurate.

But on the other hand, it's pretty barbaric.  I'd hope that we could come up with a better plan for birth control and education since left to it's own development that bunch of cells will most likely become a life form.  Even if a child is going to be born with a deficiency like down syndrome, we judge that to be a deficiency right?  But really, aren't they the crown jewels of mankind?  No judgement, no ill-will, free thinking, loving individuals.  What if had aborted all of them to get the gene pool clean, isn't there some moral implication in that?  I don't know the answers and am completely open to suggestions on how to process that but currently it's how I feel.  I guess it has it's good points and bad.

Overall I'd always hope for birth control to be norm, but abortion must be a choice or decision for the person in that situation. And I'm fine with their decision either way.

Joli, in talking about whether abortion is OK or not (your terminology), you seem to be avoiding discussing whether it should be illegal in favor of whether it is right or wrong. The question really shouldn't be whether abortion is wrong, but whether IF it is wrong, should the state intercede and apply the whatever force is available to it to bring the child to term. If that means strapping the pregnant woman to a bed until she delivers, would you approve of that.

THAT is the real question. What happens when push comes to shove?

I haven't read all the responses, so excuse me if I repeat. I have my own ideas on the subject, but what's more important to me is that they are MY morals that I apply to myself. These discussions are valuable, but I think the more important question is--why should my morals apply to others?

Update...I see that I am most certainly not the first one to bring this up!

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