In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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I was thinking of writing a reply to this topic but wisp already wrote everything I would say (nearly word for word). 

Good job wisp

can you explain why exactly you feel that life is a beautiful and precious thing? why is it special? Is a human life more sacred then any other form of life?

I'm pro-choice. I'm also however not in favor of abortion. I know..sounds confusing. I understand why someone would choose to have an abortion. there are a lot of situations where one would be better off, or even considered necessary if they chose to have an abortion. however, I could never be the person who made that choice.

on the other hand, the life that is aborted could not live without it's host anyway, so it's not really that much of a difference.

i DO think that adoption isn't always the best answer for an unwanted child though. it seems that people who are in control of our laws dont care about what happens to the child after it is born, who is taking care of it, and if the child is in fact being taken care of well. Most children who are in orphanages have a hard time being adopted. esp in the state that our economy is in today.

um...there's a lot more to be said on this topic but i have to go for now.
Thank You Jon for your response :)

I think life is beautiful and precious because we are lucky to have consciousness. To be able to think, feel, do and so on. That makes us special. That's not to say that other life forms are not "special". Without them we would not be here. We humans have the ability to control (for the most part) our lives and environment around us.

You being Pro-Choice and being "not in favor for abortion" is not confusing at all, I understand exactly what you mean when you say that, and feel where you are coming from.

IMO adoption is only the best choice when you have someone to take the child upon birth. The orphanages should be for those people who can no longer provide a healthy living environment for the child. If you are having a baby just to put it into an orphanage then you should be taking care of the child yourself instead. (noting the above comments and responses as to when abortion, IMO, is understandable).

Yes, there is so much more that can be said on this and I welcome your comments and opinions.
the only problem with "having a baby just to put it into an orphanage then you should be taking care of the child yourself instead" that some people who are in this situation simply are not capable of really taking care of their child.

again..still so much more on this topic that is going through my mind, but I'm still busy. lol
Problem with "personal" adoption... sometimes you would not be able to find a person to take the child. A child may be wanted... but the birth parents may not be able to afford its care. Some children would not be adopted at birth: it's a cruel reality that there is a subset of children [of which I fell into... btw] that no one would take. For example: children with severe deformities? Down syndrome? autism? Born without limbs? Born blind? Genetic disorders?
Tell me the truth! Would anyone choose such an infant for adoption?
I'm sure you saw this coming, but I would.
Yet, there are already full orphanages and thousands of foster kids because there doesn't seem to be enough people who share your sentiment. Or, at least share your sentiment and actually act on it.

Boy Joli, I wish there were 10,00 people like you ! The orphanages would love to see everyone of you

I think life is beautiful and precious because we are lucky to have consciousness.

Consciousness does indeed kick much ass. In fact, it is why I tend to ascribe rights to sentients, rather than humans. Sentient beings have rights, no matter their DNA. (Human, alien, etc) Non-sentient beings do not have the same rights as sentient ones.

Thus, the way I see it, an embryo does not have the same rights as a sentient being until it has developed to the point where its brain is generating active brain waves (the end of the first trimester or so, if I recall correctly) Before that point, I see no ethical problems with abortion in and of itself. Afterwards, it gets trickier, although medical necessity is always an important factor.

Often, I see restricting access to abortion being promoted as a kind of punishment for a lack of personal responsibility. The entire argument that women would just use abortions because they couldn't be bothered to take precautions against becoming pregnant that is so prevalent in many anti-abortion platforms trivializes the magnitude of the decision on whether or not to have an abortion and also presents a false image of women who seek abortions. While I don't doubt that there are some who could treat an abortion as nothing more than after-the-fact birth control, I doubt if many, much less most, women fall into that category.

While I certainly agree that people (both men and women) should take responsibility for their actions and take all necessary precautions to avoid pregnancy if they are not prepared to raise a child, the fact remains that the various birth control methods are not 100% effective. Condoms break. The pill does not always work. Even surgical options such as having tubes tied or vasectomies have been known, on rare occasion, to fail. When these rare events happen, responsible adults will have to make up their minds on what they want to do and it would be unethical to restrict their options because of what some other irresponsible person might do.
I've missed you.
I have to disagree. A newly born baby is completely dependent on other people. Just as a 9 month foetus is. There is very little that is "switched off" in a full term foetus. The kindneys, liver, heart, brain, intestines and lungs all work. The only difference with the lungs is that they are breathing amniotic fluid.

Passing through the vagina (or indeed a scar in a caesarian) actually changes very little about the baby.

When nature in "her wisdom" "decides" to "cause" a miscarriage, it isn't always to do with the viability of the baby.

As for your relatives. There is nothing wrong with what they did. I am an atheist but the loss of potential is still sad. Are you saying that the mother should have felt no attachment to the foetus? Doesn't seem like a particularly pro-choice stand to me.
There is a difference between "needing its mother" and "needing medical intervention". Most premies need medical intervention to survive. Their mother is usually not sufficient. The point at which a foetus is ready for external mothering comes barely a few weeks before term.


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