In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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I am just in shock right now over this attitude towards adoption. Wow. Breast milk is now a right? Like abortion, breast feeding or not breast feeding your child is a personal choice.

These are personal choices, but that doesn't make them exempt from scrutiny or discussion on which is the better choice. I advocate breastmilk over formula because with the health, immunologic, economic, and environmental benefits it is the better choice. Likewise, I advocate early abortion over adoption because there's no shortage of unwanted and unloved children on this planet and America has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, infant mortality, and poverty in the modern world. We need to get a handle on this situation, and encouraging/guilting females into having children they cannot afford is not the answer. In societies with better sex education and health care where abortion is not a hot button issue, early abortion does not cause the same amount of psychological trauma as adoption or having kids one cannot properly care for or support and, perhaps more importantly, the abortion rates are lower.

In your particular situation, I commend you for realizing your child would have a better life if adopted, and making that difficult choice. I'm glad you had a wonderful experience without much regret. However, that is not the case for many females and there are far too many young uneducated mothers who are pressured into carrying pregnancies to term and then, not having the will to give up their unplanned children, they end up adding to the overpopulation and vicious cycle of ignorance and poverty when the better choice would have been early abortion.

"In societies with better sex education and health care where abortion is not a hot button issue, early abortion does not cause the same amount of psychological trauma"

Very much this. I think in the US, in particular, it's a social expectation that women feel guilt after an abortion, and the focus on potential psychological issues arising becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Incidentally, this topic came up on Saturday at a party with a number of girls from the FSU. Abortion is there viewed as contraception, and it is quite common for girls to have one or several during their lifetime. There is no social stigma attached - in fact, the expectations is that they walk out just fine - and they laughed a bit of the idea of bonding with a mass of cells. I'm not discounting the physiological reactions of pregnancy, but immediately assuming life long psychological trauma from abortion seems a bit extreme. 

As for adoption, I have a bit of insight seeing as my dad was adopted as an infant. I never heard my biological grandfather or -mother express regret, nor did it seem to have any impact on them. On the other hand, my maternal grandmother was manic-depressive, no doubt partially caused from one son killed by a truck when he was 9 and another dieing from crib death.

I will never change my opinion on that, ever.
So why are we discussing this subject?

It is wrong because the child could be saved via medical technology

Not necessarily... my mother in law was a midwife and has told me a few horror stories, sometimes a foetus should just be aborted.

According to the courts (and me) the moral difference is fetal viability. I think the courts thought rationally enough on the subject and I agree with them. Ditto for the high courts of most progressive democracies in the world.
I am not a theist but would regard a foetus as alive somewhere between conception and full term. I just have a problem deciding exactly where the legal definition should be.
I definitely would make an exception for cases wherein a late term abortion would be medically necessary. I just can't help being iffy on a totally elective abortion after the point at which the foetus would be reasonably viable outside the uterus.
I have no issues with late term abortions either. As the long as the foetus is not externally viable without medical intervention, its rights are non existent.
"I don't think abortion should be legal for 'any reason.'"
I understand that this is the "light" position of "pro-lifers." However, a stance of "abortion shouldn't be performed unless the mother is raped or going to die" may be a noble stance, but it is not a realistic stance. The truth is that abortion did not begin with Roe v. Wade, it has been around since ancient times. During the victorian era of the United States history abortion was illegal and the penalty for beeing caught was death. However, history records a thriving black market of abortion practice during this time. Certain individuals were paid a fortune to destroy unwanted pregnancies. The most common clientele were young unmarried and wealthy women. Also... the poor women had their own way of doing abortions... and they risked their lives doing it. They would perform it on themselves with poisons [such as herbs and mushrooms said to induce miscarriage - sometimes they would just kill the woman instead as well as home performed surgical abortions that had high risk of death through hemorage and infection.]
Of course...some women throughout history have been either too cowardly to risk their life with home-abortions, and have resorted to something that would horrify anyone... infanticide

In ancient Rome, prostitutes would sometimes dispose of unwanted children by drowning them in underground water resevoirs. Other women would simply smother the child and then hide them from the law.

Fact is... throughout the time when abortion was illegal and dangerous... women were willing to risk death and imprisonment to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. If Roe v. Wade were oerturned... that would not stop abortion... it would only drive it underground where it would exist alongside the world of drugs. It would also make it far more dangerous and would spike the rates of BORN infant murders.

As you can see... some evils are not able to be destroyed by laws. [if you consider abortion evil that is]. Outlawing alcohol and drugs has been an absolute and embarrassing failure and outlawing abortion would be as well.
I agree that outlawing abortion is not the answer here. I think that the person getting an abortion should not just be able to walk into a clinic and get one. There should be some kind of qualifications to getting an abortion. I know this impedes womens rights, but forgive me, it's a off the top of the head thought. I think the right person could take that idea and run with it in a good moral direction.
I agree Adriana:)
True, taking precautions and making a woman think it through is a good idea. Problem is, that the current pro-life tactics of "qualifications" and "thinking it through" are making matters far worse. They are diseminating false and misleading information about birth control in "abstinence only sex ed programs." - which has led to more unwanted pregnancies, and more abortions. They have set up FAKE clinics made to look like planned parenthood and designed to decieve a woman into entering, and being scarred for life with false information and fear-mongering. They have made it legal for pharmasists to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control, if it conflicts with their "moral conciense." They have set up propaganda claiming that the Emergency Contraception pill is the same thing as the abortion pill RU286. They have made it impossible for teenagers in some states to get abortions without their parents finding out that they are pregnant... and facing the wrath of those parents. They have mislead teenagers and minorities into thinking that they have no options.

Case in point:
A few years ago a young Latina became pregnant in high school. She could not afford to care for the child and was fooled by a prolife group into thinking that abortion was already illegal. So, in desperation, she convinced her boyfriend to perform a dangerous home- abortion on her [yes this is already starting to happen] by beating her stomach repeatedly with a baseball bat.
The girl was hospitalized and went free.... but her boyfriend [who had her consent in the bludgening] went to jail for assault.


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