In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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I could be wrong, but Plan B works just like normal birth control pills, only more aggressively.  The general mechanism for both is that it prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of the uterus.  Basically, Zach's "whole human" (or "conceived baby") gets flushed down the toilet.


So, if I understand Zach's logic and he remains consistent with it, he should consider that murder.


Yes, he's already stated that he considers birth control equal to murder.

I've can honestly say I've never heard that from an atheist before.

But Plan B can either get rid of a fertilized egg, prevent an egg from being fertilized or prevent the woman from ovulating (releasing an egg) at all. It all depends on what stage of her menstrual cycle she is in and when exactly after intercourse she has taken it. But at the time of taking it, she can't know what stage of fertilization the egg is in. By your logic she is a killer if she takes it and it happens to get rid of a fertilized egg, but if it simply prevents the sperm from fertilizing the egg at all, she is on morally solid ground. Basically you're thrusting the title of murderer on someone based on a die-roll. I don't understand this reasoning, because it is the sperm that carries the DNA of a human. Every sperm is a different human, yet you do not think there is any loss of a human life when a sperm dies. I disagree with you there, though I am pro-choice, I believe every lost sperm is a lost potential person. Do I think it deserves a name? Or mourning? Certainly not. Why? Because that sperm and even that fertilized egg has no knowledge of what it lost. Just as if I were in a vegetative state and someone pulled the plug I would not know nor would I feel any loss.

If you want to argue pro-life on the grounds of whether what is being aborted is human or not, then the science does not support you, nor does the medical community, and I'm afraid they are the authority on that issue. If you want to argue based on what's best for the fetus, well then based on what I and many others have said, pro-choice is the best route. It's much better to be born to parents that want you than to be born to ones that don't and face the undeserved consequences. 

I don't get it.   All I hear is pro-life this pro-life that.  But what about during a childs life?  I read all the time the death of a child from the hands of there parents, or from a "live in companion".  It drives me crazy!!!!

@Liz:  It's simple really.  These people aren't pro-life, they are anti-sex.  Because anything that feels good must be a horrible sin.

I don't get it.   All I hear is pro-life this pro-life that.  But what about during a childs life?  I read all the time the death of a child from the hands of there parents, or from a "live in companion".  It drives me crazy!!!!

@ Liz - Really, when it comes right down to it, even if the baby dies, shortly after birth, a lot of these pro-life types console themselves that at least God's will was not interfered with.

Aye, that's the key:  Interfering with god's will.  Why is it OK to interfere with god's will when these same people support going to war in order to terminate the lives of those who don't agree with them?  Why is it OK to interfere with god's will when a child has a deadly disease?  Because those things don't involve sex.

Pro-lifers only care the baby when it's inside the mother. When it's born they couldn't give a shit. Pro-lifers try and take control of the lives of other women.

"until she is willing to accept her duties as a baby making machine,"

Ya mean like Mormons?

I mean like the majority of religions that preach abstinence until marriage. Unfortunately this mindset tends to linger even after people leave religion.

Also, I'm not sure why you keep replying to threads and then deleting your responses.

that's the point, as i said in my previous comment: nobody within pro-life supporters seems to care about "the day after birth"... i hate this kind of hypocrisy.

I try to avoid this topic but have similar views to several already posted.


Whenever I am confronted by a religious person about this, I keep the following in mind:

"Prospective studies using very sensitive early pregnancy tests have found that 25% of pregnancies are miscarried by the sixth week LMP (since the woman's Last Menstrual Period).[53][54] However, other sources reports suggest higher rates. One fact sheet from the University of Ottawa states, "The incidence of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be 50% of all pregnancies, based on the assumption that many pregnancies abort spontaneously with no clinical recognition."[55] The NIH reports, "It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%." [56] Clinical miscarriages (those occurring after the sixth week LM) occur in 8% of pregnancies.[54]"



- essentially making "god" responsible for more abortions than any person or group.


God; the great abortionist in the sky.


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