In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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Well thank you, but you may not want to roll those dice. Your genetic material appears to be desirable, so I would be obligated to bring your intellectually superior little heathens into the world. I'd do it for science.

Normally the ladies do it for pity's sake, so science is a step up.  

Practice pick-up line: Our progeny could become the scientist that develops cancer cures. Should we go back to your place or mine know...cure cancers?

I am actually really confused on the topic of rape... I would consider myself "mostly pro-life", as I consentrate more on the fetus's rights, rather than the mother's.

Of the following reasons for abortion (likely death of fetus/mother, ectopic pregnancy, severe deformity, rape, incest, and 'oopsie') I'm willing to bet the only situation in which you're staunchly anti-choice would be that of 'oopsie.' If you're confused or at least think it should be legal for the other situations then you are indeed mostly pro-choice, regardless of what you call yourself. I assure you the only reason you are "anti-choice in the case of oops" is residual religion and cultural indoctrination. You've been told over and over again by the religious right "don't have sex until you're ready to have children," "life begins at conception," and "abortion = murder." I'd love to help you rethink this position.

If you truly believe a sperm and an egg should have humans rights and protection from murder bestowed upon them at the moment they join, then women using most forms of birth control are no different than murderers. Also, you claim you condone abortion in cases such as severe deformity. Why do severely deformed fetuses have fewer rights than healthy ones? Would you allow the murder of a severely deformed newborn? Of course not. You're confused in some cases because a newborn person is not a fertilized egg, and a fertilized egg is not a person. On some level, you realize this.

I'd to suggest a read for you when you have time. It's long, but the best essay I've ever seen on the subject.

Abortion: Is it Possible to be Both "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice"? by Carl Sagan

I apologize if I came off as rude. That was not my intention. I was simply pointing out the contradiction in your opinion when it comes to your 'exceptions' for what you consider murder. Your response did clarify things, though I find it hard to believe you think a female should be forced to carry to term fetuses with deformities such as anecephaly. I'm also surprised you think birth control should be illegal.

These are not positions for which you will find much, if any, support among the skeptic community.

@ Zach - Why is it okay to murder in a war and not okay to do a merciful abortion?

p.s. Yeah Mo, I stole that from you lol. Hope you don't mind.

War (in the sense of what I think of as a "proper" war) is self-defense. I find that calling an abortion in the name of "oh, I do not want a kid" or "I don't have the money to raise it good" as not merciful, but selfish. That's all.

@ Zach - I said a merciful abortion (not "Oh, I do not want a kid" or "I don't have the money to raise it good").

I don't want to come off as vulgar but if you've ever ejaculated, then by your definition you just committed murder. Did you ever use condoms? Again, you're a murderer.

George Carlin puts it nicely if you're in the mood for a laugh:


Why do pro-lifers draw the line at conception? I encourage all pro-lifers to please explain their reasoning being against abortion but being okay with masterbation and birth control use. I'm really curious to know how that can be justified.

Yes, I figured that might have been how you felt. I'm assuming you're fine with the usage of birth control though? Are you saying using contraceptives to intervene with conception and prevent those "half-humans" from meeting and creating a "full-human" is more ethical? A life has still been prevented from existing. That child that would have been born is still gone forever.  And don't forget the fact that there is a viability period for fertilized eggs, during which they feel no pain meaning they have no nervous system and no brain development. It's really just a mishmash of cells at that point before it develops into a "full human". 

Also just another question, if you don't mind: how do you feel about the over-the-counter Plan B pill?

Many forms of birth control work in several ways by attempting to prevent fertilization or preventing implantation if fertilization has occurred. These include pills, IUD's, emergency contraception such as Plan B (the morning after pill), implants, patches, and several other forms.

Exactly Jewelz! 

@Zach, 70% of fertilized eggs are aborted anyway, so there isn't a technical guarantee of a whole human being formed under those circumstances either. And you say "you can not be gone if you were never there in the first place". Using your car analogy, what makes you think the fertilized egg has a "car" to "steal" in the first place? They don't have any more consciousness than their separated halves do. I was born because the exact sperm containing my genetic material made it to an egg. If another sperm made it, one of my brothers or sisters would have been born instead. A completely different person with a completely different set of DNA who would live a different life with different goals and dreams. No one would shed tears over my lost chance at life. So I ask you, why do you consider one non-sentient life-form deserving of more rights than another non-sentient life form? 

Your question is not ignorant and I'm more than happy to explain. The Plan B pill, also known as the morning after pill, is an emergency contraceptive that can be taken 24-48 hours (possibly more, I'm not too sure) after intercourse occurs.  It essentially stops the release of eggs, or prevents fertilization, or prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus depending on how long after intercourse it is taken. I hope that helps you form an opinion. Please share your thoughts. 

I could be wrong, but Plan B works just like normal birth control pills, only more aggressively.  The general mechanism for both is that it prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of the uterus.  Basically, Zach's "whole human" (or "conceived baby") gets flushed down the toilet.


So, if I understand Zach's logic and he remains consistent with it, he should consider that murder.


Yes, he's already stated that he considers birth control equal to murder.

I've can honestly say I've never heard that from an atheist before.


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