In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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You missed the point entirely. The difference is between intentional and due to circumstance, it's the intentionality I disagree with. I'm not insensitive towards adoption, as long as the children were not born for that purpose.

Well, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I did not get pregnant just so that I could place my child for adoption. I am not sure what 'intentional adoption' even means. I have, honestly, never met anyone before now who has this strange attitude towards adoption. I think that it is a commendable decision. To admit to yourself that you are not ready to be a parent, but choosing to take responsibility for the life inside you and carry it to term so that you can place it in a loving home is not 'planned passing of our offspring to others' as you call it. You make it sound like everyone who gives up a child for adoption is purposely placing a burden on someone else. Families who are waiting to adopt want children worse than anyone else. There is no such thing as an unwanted adopted child. (OK, Every situation has its extreme cases, so I suppose that somewhere out there exsists a child who has been adopted into a family and is either abused or becomes unwanted for some reason, sure, but that is not the overwhelming norm here).

If a person accidentally becomes pregnant before they are ready and does not want an abortion then adoption is pretty much their only other choice. If everyone went by your logic, abortion would be forced upon those who did not want to be parents, as they would have no other choice, and that is completely unacceptable. I am going to say, again, that I have no problem with abortion or those who choose it. I don't even care why you want an abortion, the reason is irrelevant to me. I think that it would cause a lot more problems to outlaw abortion than it would solve. 

To suggest that adoption should not be an alternative to abortion is, quite frankly, asinine.

I am choosing, at this point, to opt out of this conversation. As a person who has given up a child I am just too biased in the other direction to even begin to understand why anyone would  disagree with adoption or those who make plans to place their children in loving homes. I am simply too close to the situation, here. Adoption is a very emotional decision and you obviously are not considering anyone's feelings when you post things like 'We're talking abortion here, to be self aware that one should not birth allows one to decide to not birth... the rational solution. While an ignoramus goes around popping them out and giving them away. Within a given cultural context, ignorance is not a valid excuse'... Thanks a lot. You may have not been directing that comment at me, but you insult anyone who has ever given up a child and that includes me.

You don't know me and I don't know you, ok, so let's not make any judgments on my intellegence. I am not 'popping them out and giving them away' as you say. I had one child that I knew I could not afford to raise and I placed him in a loving, financially secure home. There is nothing ignorant about that. There are also thousands of families who have adopted children who would most certainly disagree with you.

So, now you can say whatever you want about us ignoramus's who go around popping out those kids and giving them away because I can't do this thread anymore. Your reasoning is absoutely absurd and quite assuredly naive.


To carry a foetus to term with the intent of giving it up. INTENT.

You do realise the number of parentless children scattered about the planet.

I'll also compare it to getting a dog from a kennel or from the Humane society. Getting dogs from a kennel encourages overpopulation. Let's adopt those already in the world, instead of creating more of them.

You don't know everyone's story, ok? There are circumstances that could cause you to make the adoption decision in the third trimester of your pregnancy when it is far too late to decide to have an abortion. I know this because it happened to me. I suddenly found myself in an entirely different situation when my husband walked out on me and his unborn child, and I did not want to put another underpriveleged child into our world. Adoption was my ONE AND ONLY CHOICE. I am sure I can't be the only person that this has happened to. I am sure ther are other circumstance that would cause you choose adoption after abortion is no longer a choice.

If you want people to adopt all the 'parentless children scattered about the planet', then take it up with the people waiting to adopt and the adoption agencies. The sad fact is that most people want a newborn who is unscarred by our harsh world. Foster children are very hard to place in permanent homes because they already have problems that most of us don't want to deal with. Sad, but true.

I did not choose adoption becaus I am ignorant, it was not irresponsible of me, and it certainly wasn't something I was planning from the onset of my prergnancy.

I maintain that your black and white picture of the world is very naive. The world is full of grey areas. I am glad for you that you have your own healthy children that you were able to breast feed for two years each, and that you never had any unexpected circumstances pop up in your life that change your situation. (At least I am assuming that you have children because you have so many opinions on how other people should handle pregnancies and how they should go about feeding their babies). That's awesome for you. But life is not like that for everyone. You can't just say we're all ignorant, sorry.

Ok. Done now. I think that you are wrong.

So you recognised your 'oopsy' moment in the third trimester... fine. But do realise that I was not pointing any finger at you specifically. As I stated many many times and you chose to ignore... at the time of making an abortion decision, one must assess one's ability to be a parent. You thought you could, but you based your decision upon outside considerations instead of your own ability in the matter.

That is very wrong IMO. An 'irresponsible' person who does not know that they are irresponsible is merely ignorant. A person who is irresponsible and KNOWS that they are, is the true irresponsible person.

Really! Do you also disagree with the original proverb? (it may be Chinese in origin, not French, but I'm not certain)

The point is to be aware of our defects leads to better decisions than to not be aware of our defects. Self-awareness is an important component of mature decision making me thinks.

Personally, when choosing my friends, I'd prefer someone who is self-aware rather than someone who isn't, no matter which defect we're discussing.

Edit: Allow me another quote...

By Klaus Kinski

One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real.

I do agree with the proverb. Foolishness and irresponsibility are not interchangeable though. At least not in the context of the proverb.

Which do you think is worse?

Someone who commits an action unaware of the potentially serious consequences, or someone who is aware of the serious consequences but commits the action anyways?

We're talking abortion here, to be self aware that one should not birth allows one to decide to not birth... the rational solution. While an ignoramus goes around popping them out and giving them away. Within a given cultural context, ignorance is not a valid excuse.

No one here is disagreeing with abortion in the case where there is a medical justification, so we are talking about abortion of 'unwanted pregnancies'. To cut right to it we are talking about sex. Someone could be ignorant of the consequences of sex if they never got a decent sex education.

Almost without exception, one who knows how to copulate knows it can procreate.

The total published risk for contraceptives is not only due to the mechanical/chemical failure, it is also behavioural failure.

Neither of these two items are what's at stake here. What is at stake is that once one realises the problem, knowing oneself, knowledge, allows one to make an informed decision. NOT knowing oneself, not knowing one's own capacities, only allows for a dumb decision.

So keep prevention out of it for second, address the consequence.

There is a very important difference between stupid and ignorant. One is about intelligence, the other about knowledge. An ignorant person who makes the wrong choice is not stupid.


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