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Permalink Reply by Zach Winkler on December 2, 2011 at 6:03pm

I touched on this with the puppy man (Reggie). Sperms are only half-humans, not full humans. You need EGGS! You can murder half-lives as much as you wish. I think this answers your second question too. It is not a human before conception, it is either a sperm or an egg, which are just half-humans.

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Permalink Reply by Sharon M on December 4, 2011 at 8:57am

Yes, I figured that might have been how you felt. I'm assuming you're fine with the usage of birth control though? Are you saying using contraceptives to intervene with conception and prevent those "half-humans" from meeting and creating a "full-human" is more ethical? A life has still been prevented from existing. That child that would have been born is still gone forever.  And don't forget the fact that there is a viability period for fertilized eggs, during which they feel no pain meaning they have no nervous system and no brain development. It's really just a mishmash of cells at that point before it develops into a "full human". 

Also just another question, if you don't mind: how do you feel about the over-the-counter Plan B pill?

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Permalink Reply by Zach Winkler on December 4, 2011 at 11:00pm

There is no technical guarantee that those two half-humans will ever meet to form a whole human. I see no problem with keeping them apart. If I believed that keeping half-humans apart was immoral then I would require people to have intercourse all the time, and that make no sense. And you can not be gone if you were never there in the first place. That is like stealing a car from some-one who does not own a car! And it is not my place to tell someone who is in their natural-state that they deserve no protection from murder just because they are in that natural state. It is age-based discrimination and wrong.

This may sound ignorant, but what is an "over-the-counter Plan B pill"? Does that abort a conceived baby or what? Once you tell me I will tell you my opinion.

 

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Permalink Reply by Jewelz on December 5, 2011 at 12:02am

Many forms of birth control work in several ways by attempting to prevent fertilization or preventing implantation if fertilization has occurred. These include pills, IUD's, emergency contraception such as Plan B (the morning after pill), implants, patches, and several other forms.

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Permalink Reply by Sharon M on December 5, 2011 at 12:53pm

Exactly Jewelz! 

@Zach, 70% of fertilized eggs are aborted anyway, so there isn't a technical guarantee of a whole human being formed under those circumstances either. And you say "you can not be gone if you were never there in the first place". Using your car analogy, what makes you think the fertilized egg has a "car" to "steal" in the first place? They don't have any more consciousness than their separated halves do. I was born because the exact sperm containing my genetic material made it to an egg. If another sperm made it, one of my brothers or sisters would have been born instead. A completely different person with a completely different set of DNA who would live a different life with different goals and dreams. No one would shed tears over my lost chance at life. So I ask you, why do you consider one non-sentient life-form deserving of more rights than another non-sentient life form? 

Your question is not ignorant and I'm more than happy to explain. The Plan B pill, also known as the morning after pill, is an emergency contraceptive that can be taken 24-48 hours (possibly more, I'm not too sure) after intercourse occurs.  It essentially stops the release of eggs, or prevents fertilization, or prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus depending on how long after intercourse it is taken. I hope that helps you form an opinion. Please share your thoughts. 

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on December 5, 2011 at 1:23pm

I could be wrong, but Plan B works just like normal birth control pills, only more aggressively.  The general mechanism for both is that it prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of the uterus.  Basically, Zach's "whole human" (or "conceived baby") gets flushed down the toilet.

 

So, if I understand Zach's logic and he remains consistent with it, he should consider that murder.

 

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Permalink Reply by Jewelz on December 5, 2011 at 5:40pm

Yes, he's already stated that he considers birth control equal to murder.

I've can honestly say I've never heard that from an atheist before.

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Permalink Reply by Zach Winkler on December 5, 2011 at 7:32pm

Well I guess if it gets rid of a  fertalized egg then it is wrong. That is how my logic goes, so there it is. You can not just kill people (with the (maybe) exception of the thing that Jewelz brought up. I will probably never make my mind-up on that horrible circumstance.

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Permalink Reply by Sharon M on December 7, 2011 at 10:48am

But Plan B can either get rid of a fertilized egg, prevent an egg from being fertilized or prevent the woman from ovulating (releasing an egg) at all. It all depends on what stage of her menstrual cycle she is in and when exactly after intercourse she has taken it. But at the time of taking it, she can't know what stage of fertilization the egg is in. By your logic she is a killer if she takes it and it happens to get rid of a fertilized egg, but if it simply prevents the sperm from fertilizing the egg at all, she is on morally solid ground. Basically you're thrusting the title of murderer on someone based on a die-roll. I don't understand this reasoning, because it is the sperm that carries the DNA of a human. Every sperm is a different human, yet you do not think there is any loss of a human life when a sperm dies. I disagree with you there, though I am pro-choice, I believe every lost sperm is a lost potential person. Do I think it deserves a name? Or mourning? Certainly not. Why? Because that sperm and even that fertilized egg has no knowledge of what it lost. Just as if I were in a vegetative state and someone pulled the plug I would not know nor would I feel any loss.

If you want to argue pro-life on the grounds of whether what is being aborted is human or not, then the science does not support you, nor does the medical community, and I'm afraid they are the authority on that issue. If you want to argue based on what's best for the fetus, well then based on what I and many others have said, pro-choice is the best route. It's much better to be born to parents that want you than to be born to ones that don't and face the undeserved consequences. 

Permalink Reply by Liz on December 1, 2011 at 7:27pm

I don't get it.   All I hear is pro-life this pro-life that.  But what about during a childs life?  I read all the time the death of a child from the hands of there parents, or from a "live in companion".  It drives me crazy!!!!

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Permalink Reply by Mo Trauen on December 1, 2011 at 8:16pm

@Liz:  It's simple really.  These people aren't pro-life, they are anti-sex.  Because anything that feels good must be a horrible sin.

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Permalink Reply by 3equ3cp1fsw0n on December 1, 2011 at 10:49pm

I don't get it.   All I hear is pro-life this pro-life that.  But what about during a childs life?  I read all the time the death of a child from the hands of there parents, or from a "live in companion".  It drives me crazy!!!!

@ Liz - Really, when it comes right down to it, even if the baby dies, shortly after birth, a lot of these pro-life types console themselves that at least God's will was not interfered with.

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