In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

Tags: abortion, pro-choice, pro-life

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War (in the sense of what I think of as a "proper" war) is self-defense. I find that calling an abortion in the name of "oh, I do not want a kid" or "I don't have the money to raise it good" as not merciful, but selfish. That's all.

War (in the sense of what I think of as a "proper" war) is self-defense. I find that calling an abortion in the name of "oh, I do not want a kid" or "I don't have the money to raise it good" as not merciful, but selfish. That's all.

@ Zach - I said a merciful abortion (not "Oh, I do not want a kid" or "I don't have the money to raise it good").

Oh! I see, okay, sorry. Some people consider "merciful" as what I described, sorry for generalizing your statement in such a way. Well, what you consider merciful is probably the same exceptions that I would make for abortion as-well. The only difference is that you may identify as pro-choice while I identify as pro-life. Does that make sense?

I don't want to come off as vulgar but if you've ever ejaculated, then by your definition you just committed murder. Did you ever use condoms? Again, you're a murderer.

George Carlin puts it nicely if you're in the mood for a laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

 

Why do pro-lifers draw the line at conception? I encourage all pro-lifers to please explain their reasoning being against abortion but being okay with masterbation and birth control use. I'm really curious to know how that can be justified.

I touched on this with the puppy man (Reggie). Sperms are only half-humans, not full humans. You need EGGS! You can murder half-lives as much as you wish. I think this answers your second question too. It is not a human before conception, it is either a sperm or an egg, which are just half-humans.

Yes, I figured that might have been how you felt. I'm assuming you're fine with the usage of birth control though? Are you saying using contraceptives to intervene with conception and prevent those "half-humans" from meeting and creating a "full-human" is more ethical? A life has still been prevented from existing. That child that would have been born is still gone forever.  And don't forget the fact that there is a viability period for fertilized eggs, during which they feel no pain meaning they have no nervous system and no brain development. It's really just a mishmash of cells at that point before it develops into a "full human". 

Also just another question, if you don't mind: how do you feel about the over-the-counter Plan B pill?

There is no technical guarantee that those two half-humans will ever meet to form a whole human. I see no problem with keeping them apart. If I believed that keeping half-humans apart was immoral then I would require people to have intercourse all the time, and that make no sense. And you can not be gone if you were never there in the first place. That is like stealing a car from some-one who does not own a car! And it is not my place to tell someone who is in their natural-state that they deserve no protection from murder just because they are in that natural state. It is age-based discrimination and wrong.

This may sound ignorant, but what is an "over-the-counter Plan B pill"? Does that abort a conceived baby or what? Once you tell me I will tell you my opinion.

 

Many forms of birth control work in several ways by attempting to prevent fertilization or preventing implantation if fertilization has occurred. These include pills, IUD's, emergency contraception such as Plan B (the morning after pill), implants, patches, and several other forms.

Exactly Jewelz! 

@Zach, 70% of fertilized eggs are aborted anyway, so there isn't a technical guarantee of a whole human being formed under those circumstances either. And you say "you can not be gone if you were never there in the first place". Using your car analogy, what makes you think the fertilized egg has a "car" to "steal" in the first place? They don't have any more consciousness than their separated halves do. I was born because the exact sperm containing my genetic material made it to an egg. If another sperm made it, one of my brothers or sisters would have been born instead. A completely different person with a completely different set of DNA who would live a different life with different goals and dreams. No one would shed tears over my lost chance at life. So I ask you, why do you consider one non-sentient life-form deserving of more rights than another non-sentient life form? 

Your question is not ignorant and I'm more than happy to explain. The Plan B pill, also known as the morning after pill, is an emergency contraceptive that can be taken 24-48 hours (possibly more, I'm not too sure) after intercourse occurs.  It essentially stops the release of eggs, or prevents fertilization, or prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus depending on how long after intercourse it is taken. I hope that helps you form an opinion. Please share your thoughts. 

I could be wrong, but Plan B works just like normal birth control pills, only more aggressively.  The general mechanism for both is that it prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of the uterus.  Basically, Zach's "whole human" (or "conceived baby") gets flushed down the toilet.

 

So, if I understand Zach's logic and he remains consistent with it, he should consider that murder.

 

Yes, he's already stated that he considers birth control equal to murder.

I've can honestly say I've never heard that from an atheist before.

Well I guess if it gets rid of a  fertalized egg then it is wrong. That is how my logic goes, so there it is. You can not just kill people (with the (maybe) exception of the thing that Jewelz brought up. I will probably never make my mind-up on that horrible circumstance.

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