In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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well... to be truthful, my libido is intact... it's just my assessment of each potential partner which is much harsher :)

 

Quickly, quickly, fix that irregardless!

My husband and I were just talking about this, it really baffles me that there is so much controversy  about abortion and yet a woman can't get her tubes tied until she's had x number of children.  Give me a break!  Not to mention how many women get pregnant on the pill!  I can't take the pill because of serious side effects and I couldn't get my tubes tied with my last baby (I have two kids) because I ended up having her via c-section at a Catholic hospital that doesn't sterilize AT ALL.   I have no interest going under the knife again, my husband is considering a vasectomy but it's really irritating and hypocritical that the religious right wants to force women to stay pregnant when they are doing NOTHING serious to prevent the pregnancies in the first place.

They see the threat of pregnancy as a way of preventing people from having sex.  Literally, I am not making this up.  I had one Catholic woman actually say to me:  "You've got to pay to play."  She said this in reference to the possibility of pregnancy--she wasn't saying that she expected her husband to buy her dinner first.

 

Can you believe such insanity?

The fastest way to elevate a village from poverty is to supply them with medicine and empower their women with family planning.  Abortion is a part of family planning.  I do have ethical objections to it though after week 9 (quite strong ones actually - but not to the point where I would never support it) , so I believe that the global community has a responsibility to use some of our riches to provide education and birth control to those who don't have it yet.

My opinion is that most often, women get pregnant, by accident or because of rape, but either way, they get pregnant, they are not ready to be parents, and the child (that didnt ask to be there) is the one who suffers.  Because of lack of money for food or because of bad parents, creating inferiority complexes and so forth.

 

I would say, abortion is an option for unplanned pregnancy.  It is very very sad for me to contemplate killing a fetus.  But it would be much sadder if that fetus was born into a unprepared environment, had to endure bad parenthood, and not be wanted.

 

If I had to choose i would choose the lesser of two evils.

Great post, Gretchen, but I think your words fall upon deaf ears. Brains aren't too lively either.
Life is not "special", that is a religious attitude coming from a creation standpoint. Life is no more beautiful than water and earth and sun and rain. All elements of our ecosystem have equal value. However, value, as an assessment, is achieved by analysing rarity, and the more humans there are, the less rare we become, the less valuable each and every life is. This is why the corporate goons who run the world like baby popping mommas in third world countries, it is an endless source of cheap labour. Baby making has become an economic imperative, and I will do everything to fight that style of economics.
which in many places they are! wake up! Slavery is alive and well on this planet, the only difference is instead of bringing Africans to the Americas, lodging them, feeding them, but withholding pay, we now leave our slaves in their own countries, don't lodge them, don't feed them, and pay them a pittance and on top of that steal all their countries resources forcing them to feed of mais and ruining their ecosystems! That is what our imperialism is doing to the rest of the world. Religion-imperialism, same domination. Unless your atheism means a change to the world power structure, your atheism is an empty label, a simple club membership, with no meaning.

Actually, often times when Western companies use cheap labor, it almost invariably results in a a better quality of life for the workers.  Many times it reaches a point where their quality of life and there wage demands are such that companies move to the next dump where workers are willing to work for a pittance.

 

Not that I disagree with the general sentiment you express.  It's just that it is not really slavery when people choose to work in crappy conditions because the alternative is worse.

Well yes if your timeline begins only at the moment of employment, but when you factor in international global decisions that result in these people being even poorer than they would have been without our interventions... It looks more like: ... we make them starve, then we offer them a pittance, the pittance rises, then they're free to starve again... When one is starving, one is not free. One must eat, especially, one must feed one's offspring, there is no choice in starvation.
"Atheism has nothing to do with economics, political philosophy, or economic philosophy it is simply a rejection of god claims, nothing more, nothing less."

Precisely. Being atheist may have a strong correlation with other things, such as an appreciation for science, rationality, critical thinking, skepticism, etc, but those others are neither a requirement for nor a necessary result of being an atheist.

Skepticism cannot only be applied to quack medicine and the bible, if you aren't applying at large to the world we live in (politics, sociology, economics), you're only going half way. There are many people who apply scepticism very selectively.

 

We wouldn't have discussion groups for people who just happen to dislike the colour red... Gods have consequences, to fight gods without fighting consequences is duplicitous. All endeavours and ideas are on the table.

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