In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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The abortion "controversy" is a ginned up "wedge" issue that religion is using to try to regain the ground it is losing as a result of nearly universal education, scientific advancement, and the evidence of it's role in the Holocaust. 


Like most such ploys by religion, the strategy is to identify some visceral, instinctual "hot button" that will cause people to blindly support the "right" leaders.  "Saving babies" is a surefire way to do that.


It also just happens to fit perfectly with religion's unhealthy obsession with sex--and stopping it.

//The abortion "controversy" is a ginned up "wedge" issue//


Of course it is. Historically, Christians were not so against abortion. There were a lot of babies left by the side of the road. There were a lot of mothers who could not afford their babies and left them on church steps to die or be adopted. And abortion itself isn't a new thing - there were always methods to abort babies.

Here's a link. Take it for what it's worth, given the source. I don't think it's that far off the mark.

Thank you for that link.  Here is one you might be interested in as well:


It lays out the history of the Catholic Church's views on abortion.


The author is a former priest who switched churches.  I would join his congregation in a heartbeat if only there was some truth to the whole "invisible magic man" thing.

Every baby that is born has a RIGHT to be healthy, wanted, loved & provided for until it is able to provide for itself. When all these conditions are not met, abortion is a moral choice.

William C. Walker wrote:  "Every baby that is born has a RIGHT to be healthy, wanted, loved & provided for until it is able to provide for itself. When all these conditions are not met, abortion is a moral choice."


Thank you for saying that.  I am continually perplexed how so many people seem to be completely oblivious to this issue.

The average amount of sperm ejaculated is 111 million. So would you consider this to be 111 million corpses, or 111 million potential children? 


The fetus isn't alive till 12 weeks, there are reasons why it's illegal after a set period of time. It is no different than an egg. If you're going to argue against this then I propose another question for you...


What would you consider a human being without a head? Because a fetus doesn't even start to develop a head until 8 weeks. So you either admit that a fetus is no different than an egg, or you admit that walking zombies are a very likely conclusion.

Life is NOT a beautiful and precious thing. We are born, we eat, we fuck, we die, these are all equally 'beautiful'. And whether considered beautiful or not, they are all equal. We are but temporary beings on this planet, and there are way too many of us. I am OK with anything that reduces our numbers, from the outset. What is truly horrible is in this supposed age of enlightenment and atheists considering themselves 'above and beyond' the forces of nature, is to force a human to carry an unwanted foetus for 9 months, THAT is horrible, and nearly drove me to suicide. Women have been terminating pregnancies for all the known history of humans. Birthing only became sanctimoneous with the advent of Abrahamic patriarchal religions.


My earliest understanding of the normality of abortion was living 'in the country' and on farms where when puppies and kittens who were too populous would be euthanised, humanely. My earliest sentiment was if we were were humane enough to save a kitten or puppy from a life of misery, surely we were humane enough to do so for a human.

The day WILL come when we will allow,& even help people to 'take an early, dignified out', rather than to live in pain & die in misery.

If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant.


For 14 years I begged docs to sterilize me, but noooooooooooooooooooooo, they were insistent I would eventually want children. So any moral judgement regarding my abortions (while making use of the pill, condoms, morning after pill) is SQUARELY on the patriarchal hypocritical medical establishment.
Oh man, don't even get me started.  I've known since I was 15 that I would never ever ever ever raise a child, but do you think anyone would believe me?  Hell no!  I'm 37 and as adamant about it now as I was then.   It pisses me off that those freaking doctors thought I was just some stupid kid who thought sterilization would be an easy way to have worry free sex.  Man it pisses me off.  I was having deep and rational thoughts about my long term well being, and they were treating me like a stupid horny kid.   Ugh, man, I know exactly how freaking maddening that is!!!
Because although even atheists claim to have been through enlightenment, it is all words, most humans are still very much attached to their reproductive potential and turn that into a moral stance. I really dislike morality, it's so BS. If humans, including atheists, were as science conscious as we claim to be we'd see that Homo sapiens outnumbering other large mammals is not healthy for our ecosystem and the enlightened thing to do is cease reproduction for a while. THAT would be rising above animal instincts... the lowerered fertility rates we see on the planet are thousands of times insufficient.

You know what was a real surprise to me after I finally got my tubes cauterised? My promiscuity went down, a whole lot!!!


I spent months and years pondering on that and came to the conclusion that I'd been allowing myself to live in a zone of illusion, like:

-maybe... if I found the right guy

-maybe... if the world were not overpopulated

They were extremely small maybes, somewhere in the range of strong agnostics' assessment of god.

I also tended to date nice guys, guys oddly enough with good fatherly potential, whereas a good many women complain that they can't find a good man to become a father, which is why they ended up with jerk assholes... but why did I end up with the good guys?


Anyway, after the cauterisation, I truly stopped dating and/or fucking men who thought of children. Which means my sex life went way downhill! hehehe


So in the greater scheme of things, if my experience can be extrapolated, widespread sterilisation would not only reduce unwanted pregnancies, but might also reduce the incidence of STDs! (Not that I ever had any...)


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