In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

Tags: abortion, pro-choice, pro-life

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I know of women who have also terminated pregnancies for reasons you did. I don't know if I ever could as such a situation never cropped up, but I would defend your right to the HILT for you to do with your body what you choose to.  

Unfortunately far too many self-professed "pro-lifers" don't see, nor want to see that the reasons some women terminate pregnancies, that such a decision is not made lightly.

For example one quite rabid "pro-lifer" I was interacting with just recently, made the arduous claim that the MAJORITY of voluntary induced terminations, were done on girls who were more concerned with PROMNIGHT or "fooling around/promiscuity". It does not matter to her that the FACTS actually speak the contrary.. she just continued crapping on like a pork chop, going on to say that these girls were sociopaths and  killers and other abuses toward them of that ilk.

Certainly, people have a right to an opinion on such matters, but they would make themselves look less stupid, IF their opinion was actually a learned one. 

I'm pro abortion, but I really do wonder where you draw the line between personal or not. If I was pro-life, it would not be just for me, it would be for all society, one who's against the death penalty or animal cruelty doesn't just say "it's personal". I think saying "it's personal" is the weakest of arguments in the pro-choice movement. It's not "personal", it's societal, and ALL females MJST have the ability to control their own bodies. I will not stop on my campaign until all people stop calling things "personal". Personal is food choice, THIS is my life...

Well said. 

Even Christopher Hitchens was against abortion. It should be fairly easy to understand that is is great moral evil being perpetrated by our society. Conception is the only logical place to define life. It is at that point that the zygote has its own DNA distinct from that of either of the parents, and it begins development at an astonishing rate, this development will only stop if some violence is perpetrated against it. The viability of the embryo or foetus is irrelevant. It is already on the fast track to becoming a sentient human being. If the parent cannot keep the child then adoption is preferable to killing the embryo. A woman's choice is before she become pregnant. 

Conception is the only logical place to define life.

It's actually an illogical place. If you want to seek that minimum threshold, life beings at abiogenesis (or perhaps simply genesis from your perspective).

Even Christopher Hitchens was against abortion.

It was his right to hold whatever views he pleased, but unless you present his arguments, his name alone doesn't really mean anything.

So, gestational trophoblastic disease is "life" to you?

Animals are more sentient than fetuses right now, yet do you eat them?

The risk of death from pregnancy and childbirth is greater than the risk of death from an elective abortion. Does denying a woman a choice to take the lesser risk imply you value a fetus over the sentient being mom?

There are far more spontaneous abortions/miscarriages than elective abortions. Is this "god" declaring itself a pro-abortionist?

And, if you haven't already done so, please read "When Abortion Was a Crime" and the Roe v Wade decision.

When "life" starts is completely irrelevant. What the law defines is a person, and a foetus will never be a person because its life is not independent from the mother's wormb. Hitchins was a war monger, I don't see how any of his opinions about life have any appeal.

Considering Christopher Hitchens had no ovaries, how is this at all relevant?

Also, how can the viability of the foetus/embryo/blastosyst NOT be relevant, or do you expect women with molar pregnancies to walk around for 40 odd weeks with a growing humour inside them, that will NOT ever become a sentient human being?  What about women with ectopic pregnancy?  In both these cases conception happened and through no fault of the woman, they will NEVER EVER be neonates.

I must say that I totally sympathize, and am completely in agreement, with the sentiment of not wanting the government to tell a woman (or man, for that matter) "what to do with their own body". I definitely want the government's fingers off of both men's and women's bodies as much as is reasonably possible.

The rub, of course, is when the actions of one person's body affect another person's body. Theology aside, secular America, for example, has a long tradition of recognizing that the rights of my fist end where your nose begins. Pregnancy is a very special experience wherein one person's body actually grows, develops, and is eventually birthed through, another person's body. Two bodies are hardly ever so interdependently connected as in pregnancy. So it is unfitting to apply generic phraseology to a situation which encompasses such a unique set of specific conditions. Namely, any rhetoric about "her own body" really doesn't do justice to the complexity of the situation. Again, even with all theology aside, it is by no means obvious to many a parent who has watched a sonogram of their child in the womb that the child developing inside its mother should be regarded as a non-human-being. So resorting to the "her own body" rhetoric which is so common does not strike me as being a good, honest, or fair approach.

If someone wants to make the argument that a "fetus" is not a human being and does not warrant the protections that most of us assume are appropriate for a human being, they can set forth such an argument. But if the form of argumentation simply glosses over, or minimizes, the entirely non-trivial issue of the second body involved then I believe such an approach is doomed to appear disingenuous to those who are deeply concerned about (what they at least honestly perceive as) the "other" body in the story.

This is why I really cannot stand watching the "pro choice" side shoot themselves in the foot with "keep your laws off my body" language.  When the other side is arguing that this is a murder, that's wholly inadequate as a response; if it's a murder the government has every business putting its laws on your body, anyone other than an anarchist will agree that that is what government is forSo you must make the case that it's not a murder--or at the very least cast doubt on their arguments--which "Keep your laws off my body" fails to do.

Namely, any rhetoric about "her own body" really doesn't do justice to the complexity of the situation.

The problem is, much of that complexity is a fabrication -- conveniently defined personhood to force a particular ideology despite the fact that a foetus bears virtually no attributes of personhood.

It's not a person, and it's not a second body. It is my body, up until it it is ready to get out of my body, after 9 months. Until it is out of my body, it IS MY body.


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