Be sure to vote, I am curious where most atheists stand on this issue.

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@Tom - You may be lucky and be in the four and not the one :)

@Unseen - Well, a disproportionat percentage of crimes are committed by blacks or hispanics, why not go ahead and draw similar sort of "safe" conclusion using the same sort of logic, namely that American blacks and Hispanics are among the most violent people on Earth?

Are not black Americans - Americans. Just for this discussion, I consider anybody who lives in America as American - I don't quantify of who is who, or who comes from where - all the same to me. You are the one who bought up colour or whatever, not me. I have no idea who or what colour commits what crime. Makes no difference to me. A dead person is a dead person, no matter what colour, wouldn't you say.

My point, which you seem at pains to miss, is that I can't base a sweeping generalization based on the behavior or attitudes of a minority. The same sort of flawed logic that allows one to draw the conclusion that "Americans are violent" can be used to conclude that "American racial minorities are violent." 

It's a kind of logic which is flawed and to be avoided. I offered my argument as a reductio ad absurdum

The Constitution is Prime Law and a living document (ie. it is changeable).

The 2nd Amendment is also Prime Law, it clearly establishes the "Right" of the "People" to own and carry weapons.  The 2nd Amendment does not require a standing militia only that the power to form a militia for the defense of their "State" resides with the "People" and their privately held arms.

Those of you don't like the consequences of a Free People having a Right to own and possess guns, then follow the correct path and change the Constitution  by enacting a new Amendment and having it properly ratified.

Otherwise your choice is to grin and bear it or move to Australia and hang out with Suzanne and her two dogs.

True, but in regards to a free people, property rights are paramount and as it is we don't even own the property in the US (except for parts of Texas) that the house we bought sits on. Hardly anyone has Allodial title on the land, either the "government" owns it outright or we rent it from them. Wish they would (as if they would) pass an amendment restoring allodial title rights to the common people. Hope you don't mind me changing the subject slightly.

Nah, I don't mind, change is good.

@Unseen - If I cheese somebody off with cancer say, or the flu, or diabetes, I know they are not going to kill me with said cancer, flu or diabetes.

@Gregg - Black markets will be a tad harder to find here, but it would be an interesting exercise. You would have to know where the crims hang out, then it shouldn't be too hard.

Just look for like minded people, who love their guns :)

I spent my youth walking shoulder to shoulder with those who kill the innocent, I can recognize them, they are to be feared.

#Unseen - argumentum ad ignorantiam - look at the statistics, and I will guarantee you didn't see the fabulous web page on Keep Americans Armed -

or Gallup's links to statistics. All a very interesting read. Advertising and politicking at it's best.

Never mind the millions this lot make from keeping citizens frightened, as long as they make their millions. Just because you are a big, brave boy and are not frightened, doesn't mean a lot of other people are not frightened.

This is the same circular discussion with a theist, one ignores stats and deaths, one ignores the bad bits in the bible - same old, same old.

Do not care what you believe or not believe, just keep your guns over there.

@Gregg - Or grin and keep an eye out, and dodge if necessary :)

Otherwise your choice is to grin and bear it or move to Australia etc. etc.

This is exactly what the funloving christians say, if you don't Love the Lord, leave.

Here is an Aussie I want to hang out with.

Hey Suzanne, you wanna go to the range with us and blast some targets?

@Gallup - You may find this site interesting, I know Unseen and the other bloke won't read it :)



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