Be sure to vote, I am curious where most atheists stand on this issue.

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Husni al-Za'im's reign was short lived-lived, but subsequent coups learned the lesson and let the Trans Arabian Pipeline be - Syria has never regained stability and as I understand it is still somewhat of a problem.

The overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 53 - which at least 'un-nationalized' the petrol resources for 25 years.  With democracy gone, they eventually turned to theocracy and, well, they are somewhat of a problem today as well.

Jacobo Árbenz in Guatemala - again, may not have ruled long, but commercial goals were achieved.

I have about 20 of them - do you really want me to type them all out?

Yes, I do.

Well the US failed in 1958 in Indonesia - but actually got caught covertly dropping bombs on behalf of rebels.  Kennedy later got what he wanted anyway by simply offering billions in 'foreign aid'.

They failed at the Bay of Pigs too I guess.

Mobutu in Zaire/Congo

João Goulart, overthrown in 64

Nkruma was financially undermined - and Ghana brought to ruin.

Let's not forget Afghanistan - first putting warlords in power, leading the the Taliban to become their supreme court, then putting Karzai in there now - so that's one country that's been flipped twice, both times for the sake of keeping markets open.

1980 Turkish coup

There was the contras fiasco, Iraq has been flipped again, this time to a puppet government rather than a dictatorship - but still not a government formed by the people.

I wouldn't mind if y'all would go in and flip North Korea - but I imagine you'll choose Iran and fabricate bullshit evidence to flip that one instead.

Did I hit 20 yet? (counting Iraq and Afghanistan twice each)

Looks more like 10 - seemed like I was typing for longer.

Those look more like administrations overthrown and not dictators installed who have survived long term.

Ok, how was the longevity of the new government (often dictators) relevant here?  The point was that the US military is overthrowing governments and behalf of corporate America.  Even if the dictator/new regime doesn't last long - the economic changes stay in place because the succeeding governments know touching those changes will just bring the US back.

That's one of the perquisites of being a very powerful nation, though, isn't it? The way it's always been and always will be.  I'm sure that if Canada had equivalent power, it would be throwing its weight around on behalf of its wood products, oil and mining, and fishing industries as well, though in that case you'd probably be defending your government and I'd be the one harping about how nasty it is of the Canadian government to be assisting Canadian business interests.

Well, the Canadian government is currently spending money to promote oil sands development and I'm vocally opposed - not because I'm opposed to oil sands development but because I feel it is a violation of free market economics when a government uses my tax dollars to advertise on behalf of corporate interests.

I'm opposed to them advertising - now imagine how I would feel if they were assassinating people, ruining foreign countries, and starting wars on behalf of those companies?

So, unlike you, no - I wouldn't defend my government going abroad and killing people and destroying lives to make my corporate masters richer.  Why do you?


"That's one of the perquisites of being a very powerful nation, though, isn't it? The way it's always been and always will be."

I do not accept that might makes right.

And never will.

"Might makes right"? No.

Right isn't in the picture.

It does get results, though.

I'm not someone who believes in metaphysical ethics.

According to this scholarly study in The William and Mary Law Review of gun ownership up to the American Revolution, "...individual gun ownership n every published study of early probate records that we have located ranges from 50% to 79%, only 32.5% of households today own a gun." (pg 1835)

There's a lot of people that feel it's somehow an evil and dangerous thing to have around. They're right about the dangerous part, however the evil part depends on who owns it and takes care it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. Lot of people that didn't grow up with households that owned and shot guns are freaked by them.


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