Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by River Otter on January 16, 2009 at 12:58pm

Maybe his son wasn't a good enough follower to get into paradise.

Thanks for the pics.

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Permalink Reply by Pam on January 16, 2009 at 2:09pm

"Politics aside, what struck me was the picture of the father wailing over what I assume to be his dead son. If the kid is a martyr in a holy war doesn't he now reside in paradise with his virgins? Shouldn't the father be celebrating if he is a true believer?"

That's quite harsh. No human being would celebrate a child's death, not a sane, ethical one at least. Contradiction or not, that's an extremely base comment about someone and his (assumed) dead child.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Mann on January 16, 2009 at 5:17pm

- "Maybe his son wasn't a good enough follower to get into paradise"
- "If the kid is a martyr in a holy war doesn't he now reside in paradise with his virgins?

Hey comrades: Let's be careful before making trite or banal statements.

Most of the people in Gaza just want to raise their families. The population are hostages. a scenario: Some regular people are in a house, Hamas shows up with rockets, fires them from the roof. The Israelis fire back, the house is destroyed and innocent civilians are killed.

Hamas Party members are warned before a rocket attack is launched. Supporters of Fatah are left to fend for themselves. Fatah is weak in Gaza. It is a secular party and is a member of the same international organization as the British Labour Party, the Israeli Labor Party and the Democratic Socialists of America.

It's not the religious extremists who are killed It's the civilians. No doubt some are secularists who are offered up as sacrifices - but not to the will of Allah - no. They are sacrificed in front of cameras for propaganda purposes. The dead and injured may be atheists but they are never free to be atheists publicly.

The enemy is Fascism and religion is just one of many tools employed by the fascist party Hamas.

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Permalink Reply by Frink on January 16, 2009 at 6:17pm

"Hey comrades: Let's be careful before making trite or banal statements."

Seconded.

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Permalink Reply by Fargone on January 16, 2009 at 6:27pm

I don't think I've ever been called comrade before.

The point I was trying to make, though from the reaction poorly done, was that the dogma and rhetoric of religion falls flat on its face when reality gives you a swift kick in the nuts. If anything, the man's grief is exacerbated by a failing of his faith. I still argue that if you truly believe that your loved one is in paradise, heaven or nirvana then the reaction to death should be joy not grief. To me, the man's reaction is the natural one. Even jebus supposed asked why he had been forsaken; not the reaction one would expect from someone on their way to a seat at the right hand of god.

If one of my children were to die before me it would rip my guts out and I have no idea how I would react. More stoically (on the outside anyway) than this gentleman in all probability.

From the kids garb, he appears not to have been an innocent civilian but a "soldier" with Hamas. Moot point to him now. I still want to leave politics out of the discussion and concentrate on religion though its hard to separate the two. Lets change it to leaving the question of which side is right or wrong out of it.

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Permalink Reply by Fargone on January 19, 2009 at 12:11am

Everyone shows up, flames me, then takes off. I may be a shallow, callous asshole but I'll remain a shallow, callous asshole without discourse. Opening the door, flipping the bird, then slamming the door is something you do to the Jehovah Witness.


Main Entry: fo·rum
Pronunciation: \ˈfȯr-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo·ra
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door — more at door
Date: 15th century

a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business
b: a public meeting place for open discussion
c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas

Leave me with the last word and hard to tell what sort of stuff will ooze out of my crude, misfiring synapses.

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Permalink Reply by Pam on January 20, 2009 at 10:32am

I think most of the comments were in response to what River Otter posted. Either way, nobody's trying to flame anyone, only exercising caution. We wouldn't want to come off as the "evil, no morals heathens" theists claim we are. And again, I'm not saying you or anyone else is an "evil, no morals heathen"...unless you are. =P

As for the delay, long weekend! Hope it was well enjoyed by all.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Mann on January 21, 2009 at 6:32pm

Hey Fargone:

Relax, take a downer. Everyone shows up? There are five people on this thread. You got flamed? Three people suggested your comments weren't appropriate. I'm 45 and have been posting when the internet was just a local BBS in somebody's basement. I've saved postings from people calling me really nasty names and sometimes arguments or statements I post have gotten totally annihilated. I'm sure I'll get my head virtually bashed in on this site. Just wait. It'll happen I promise.

How long a wait do you consider appropriate before you receive a reply? Frink posted something to another thread in reply to one of my posts and it's got me all agitated because he makes some good points I'm having difficulty responding to.

Isn't it great to have a site where I can test drive my thoughts among fellow atheists before taking trying them out on our religious adversaries? It'll be fun watching your synapses misfire.

1) I don't think you can separate religion from politics in the middle east. Just can't be done.
2) A soldier in the Hamas militia could be an atheist forced to fight against his will; their protestations of faith could be required by the political situation. We'll never know.

Later.

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Permalink Reply by Pam on January 20, 2009 at 10:25am

To be fair, I can't see the pictures because the site is blocked by our firewalls at work.

I completely understand your point and agree, but I think most of us (at least me) were hesitant to manipulate the man's suffering just to illustrate a religious fallacy.

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Permalink Reply by Fargone on January 21, 2009 at 12:22am

According to most polls, we are already viewed as evil, amoral monsters just by mentioning that we are atheists. While I will deny the evil tag, the amoral one might be debatable ;P

I included the picture simply to make it easier to raise the point of grief seemingly being incongruous with the idea of heaven/paradise after death. The picture would have taken a paragraph to describe so I have to add lazy to my list of character flaws. Going to funerals and telling grieving people that they are hypocrites was not my intent. We'll leave that to the gang at Westboro Baptist Church.

Looking back at my original statement I find more unsettling the fact that I described photos of dead men stacked like cord wood as being "fairly" graphic. Maybe too many years of Darfur, John Woo and George Bush does inure a person to violence.

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