Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by dr howard davis on December 8, 2009 at 6:48pm

Let's face it -if there were no so called contradictions and they can easily be explained,you would still not believe it. This goes for everyone. Why make excuses?

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Permalink Reply by Matthew on December 11, 2009 at 10:06pm

No. If there was UNDENIABLE PROOF, I would believe. Where is the OT God coming down into burning bushes that dont just burn away, the fingers writing shit in stone, burnt offering getting fried by pillars of fire, I would even take a river of blood right now (how disastrous the plagues had been IF they realy happened. I might do a posting on that!...)! But, since none of that is going to happen because there IS NO GOD!

Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on December 8, 2009 at 9:23am

Yes I have read the bible, several times, I had daily religious instruction until I was in the 8th grade, I served as an alter boy for several years, I have a minor in philosophy of religion. And I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone, with a modicum of intelligence can believe that crap.

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Permalink Reply by dr howard davis on December 8, 2009 at 6:43pm

The key here is in your words,"I cannot for the life of me understand..."

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Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on March 7, 2012 at 4:33pm

You left out... "with a modicum of intelligence can believe that crap."

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Permalink Reply by dr howard davis on December 11, 2009 at 8:19pm

"I cannot"is your key;so don't lay your inability to comprehend on everyone else. Calling someone else's belief "crap" only shows your lack of intelligence and respect for opinions not your own.
I know professors and researchers who do understand so what? Your background proves nothing.
I know an atheist who used to try and get Christians to disabelieve for many years and even laughed at them. Today, he does 'understand' and is a staunch believer doing the opposite! Again,so what? We can do see saw all day long.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew on December 11, 2009 at 9:08pm

Sure we can do a seesaw all day and it dosent prove a god one way or another. The bible is demonstrably proven to be written by failable man without divine help because of all the flaws in it. Many, many contradictions, bias from Bronze Age beliefs, the church in Council of Treant deciding what books to have in the bible by committe. It all leads people to think that temporal men wanted money, power and fame and do that you dupe people into beleiving whatever the bible is saying and giving thier money and land to the church. Not much has changed today except there are more educated people today who see though it, but there are still the people who will believe no matter what.

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Permalink Reply by dr howard davis on December 18, 2009 at 5:44pm

You are right there to prove there is no God you would have to observe the entire universe! I say you can see thousands of evidences as some scientists (others don't 'see' anything but matter as it were all here by 'chance'-fine their belief) have pointed out we didn't get here by accident (think about your body and it's digestion of thousands of nutrients alone. Zinc alone engages in thousands of enzymatic chains in the body!!! AND the body knows what to do with this trace mineral along with all the other microscopic functions).
Every day we are finding out more just about how the body uses nutrients! It is so vastly complex it boggles the mind. I know- I have researched the body and related factors and subjects and I am still greatly amazed by it all after over 42 years of research and study. It can't be by 'chance.'

This universe is not functioning by hit or miss as it were.
I can tell you what positional orbit of Mars will be 1,000,3,000 or 5,000 years from now using an ephemeris! Even though Einstein didn't believe in a personal God he did say and write such things as' God doesn't play dice with universe.' He knew you can calculate planetary postions to a degree point and place given any year to work from with great accuracy,etc. Just completed a bio of his life.

No, proven false or contradictory in their minds. When you study it is like studying law all kinds of 'contradictions' seem to appear. One may take life in another section you may not take life. You can't enter someone's home in another section you may do so.
It is as Paul said "rightly divide" the word as one does with law.

Going into church history you see man spoiling- in some cases- what was clearly laid out in the NT to do or not to do,etc. Man's fault.It says in the NT 'in the Last Days some will depart from the faith...and bring in false teachings,'so what you posted is true. Each church and each individual must be judged -not all of so called Christianity.
It says at the final judgment each and every person will "give an account of every idle word "they spoke!
I think many look for contradictions and poor human examples of the Teaching so they can justfy their unbelief. John wrote "they will not come to the light because their deeds are evil."

Following Christ is an individual matter in all actuality. I have met many the world knows nothing about, but they are giving to the poor and assisting them in numerous ways-some to this day at great personal cost to themselves. Some have given up great jobs to work full time with street people ! They always get excited to find some they have worked with turned around and even got married and got jobs, etc. It is not easy or glamourous either.

I have seen first hand and have helped too in any way I could over the years small churches giving everything they could to help homeless people,including children, which my heart goes out to;but it never really makes the news. It does not have to as long as these people know they are loved and not forgotten.
When a church or 'believer'goes astray (and rightly so) that makes news ! I understand,but don't sit back at home behind a computer and judge so harshly as there are those who labor to help those that have fallen on hard times.
"Educated"? For eveyone who says 'nay' I will produce twenty educated people that say 'yeah.' So what? Both are 'educated.' Proves nothing. Atheists are in the tiny minority. But,all the more reason though to defend their rights too. No one should be laughed at ,scoffed or ridiculed for their beliefs. We need to defend each other while we justly debate points of disagreement on various issues.
I am grateful for this open forum and it's webmaster.

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Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on March 7, 2012 at 5:03pm

@ Howard Davis..

What you seem to not understand it that you cannot prove a negative. As usual, it's the Christian claiming something exists, then telling people to prove it doesn't. The burden of proof lays with the claimant, in this case you. 

For example,..
If I said I saw a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow,  you'd say something like,"Yea, right. Prove it." Then it would be up to me, the one making the claim, to prove I did find it. 

In the case of religion the exchange is slightly different, Christians are saying they found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and the Atheist reply is "Prove it"... Christians then say "You can't prove I didn't find it." 

You wouldn't need to observe the entire universe to prove God. There would just need to be some O.T. type of miracle. You know like a talking burning bush,that type of thing. Something which should be simple to someone such as God especially since they're supposed to have done it before.. 

Permalink Reply by James A on December 11, 2009 at 10:26pm

I used to be a believer but the Bible does contradict itself. The only way to get around it is to cherry pick and stick your head in the sand.

Your the one coming the an atheist site and talking down to people. You have read some fundie books and just expect everyone else to believe without doing any critical thinking.

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Permalink Reply by dr howard davis on January 25, 2010 at 1:22pm

Have you not read law? Many points of law seem to contradict,but when placed in proper context they don't. 'Don't kill.' Another place :the State, officers and soldiers and in certain cases citizens may kill ,but only under certain circumstances.

For something to truly 'contradict' there must be no way to reconcile the supposed differences.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on January 25, 2010 at 2:14pm

I'll give you an example of wholly contradictory line of thought that gets to the base.

From the Sermon on the Mount. Some find it central to Jesus as a person.
"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed ADULTERY with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into HELL."

Clearly thought police work is a foot. If it's illegal to get worked up and want, maybe even covet, a woman, then you are subject to Hell as you have violated a commandment, possibly two.

2 Kings 2:23-25 Elisha is walking along and kids are harassing him calling him "baldhead". He doesn't turn the other cheek, he curses them in the name of the lord and 42 children are killed by two bears. Do you suspect Elisha is in Hell? If the answer is no, then we have a contradiction in base teachings. One thought leads to 42 murders and is acceptable. The other offends god, but does nothing to the woman and it's off to Hell.

Your early assessment on December 8th is correct. I wouldn't believe even if there were no contradictions. The point of this exercise is to learn, not to bolster our position. For me, the story of Elisha's morality and the morality of god as used in this story is reason enough. It violates the morals that I demand of anyone that I would call my leader.

Of course there is something that I'm not considering I'm sure. But the core of this being is laid out from stem (here's a fruit, but don't eat it, you ate it no everyone forever will be responsible) to stern (the Apocalypse and Jesus' declaration that he's a mass murderer in waiting). The whole of the book is unjust and any particular point is meaningless. I reject it all, especially if it were all correct. The main contradiction is in describing murder and control as love. As a moral person, i am obligated to reject this behavior.

I don't mean to disrespect your intent with your religion. This is the book that I see and for clear discussion, I have to be direct and illustrative. I hope that it lends to your understanding of why I stand where I do.

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